Misterios cuanticos
18 mensajes de 4 personas.
Mensaje 1
Let's assume no. Therefore consciousness creates math. Therefore consciousness is independent of math. Since math describes space and time, consciousness is independent of space and time. Therefore it is not located in space or time. Since the fundamental quality of consciousness is to be conscious of something, that something can be anywhere in space or time. Thus consciousness is inherently capable of "time travel" and "space travel."
Let's assume yes. Therefore consciousness discovers math. Math describes space and time, but may describe other things as well, as yet unknown and unthought of. That math is discovered, however, means that math is discoverable. Thus all of math may be discovered, which would be an infinite discovery, which suggests consciousness is either infinite (and thus part of space and time, only by and in which infinity is a meaningful concept) or independent of space and time. However, if consciousness were infinite, it would already have discovered all of math.
So either way, consciousness must be independent of space and time, and until this fact is appreciated, its grasp of math will be limited by its assumptions of its own dependency on space and time. Repeat: consciousness does not exist in space and time, and does not depend on space and time. Note: space and time may depend on consciousness, without refuting any of the above.
Let's assume yes. Therefore consciousness discovers math. Math describes space and time, but may describe other things as well, as yet unknown and unthought of. That math is discovered, however, means that math is discoverable. Thus all of math may be discovered, which would be an infinite discovery, which suggests consciousness is either infinite (and thus part of space and time, only by and in which infinity is a meaningful concept) or independent of space and time. However, if consciousness were infinite, it would already have discovered all of math.
So either way, consciousness must be independent of space and time, and until this fact is appreciated, its grasp of math will be limited by its assumptions of its own dependency on space and time. Repeat: consciousness does not exist in space and time, and does not depend on space and time. Note: space and time may depend on consciousness, without refuting any of the above.
Mensaje 2
2 respuestas
I do not see how you have shown that consciousness is independent of space and time. I do not see that you have stepped outside of space and time. I doubt that you could. What makes you think that all math could be discovered or that anything is infinite. Have you discovered all of math.
In science, you have offered no evidence that consciousness is independent of space and time. You can believe it if you want but I do not see it.
In science, you have offered no evidence that consciousness is independent of space and time. You can believe it if you want but I do not see it.
Mensaje 3
Hey William, Happy New Year ... I thought Quantum Theory did show us that Consciousness was both local & non-local, & that if you look into how the quantum/classical world of consciousness works you might see that it is a field dynamic, working between the implicit & explicit fields, of non-local (intuitive) & local (rational) mind.
Where does the field of mathematics stand if not outside of time & space in the wave world of potential? & how do we get to know that field, but through its collapse by individuals into classical & rational existence? We do this by separating a part of the whole into something more tangible, existence. This was shown by Sir William Hamilton "discovery" of Quaternion Mathematics, when thinking that all was lost & that he would never get the breakthrough he was searching for, & whilst talking a walk with his wife over a bridge in Dublin, it came to him in a flash of inspiration (the quantum non-local realm of pure potential in mathematics), which he then he could rationalize due to his hard preparation & work.
This is how the quantum/classical mind works, you have to prepare the ground with thorough investigation, then let go of thought, to give space for creativity to enter, then take the creativity revealed & manifest with it. This is the wonder of the quantum/classical mind, & a part of our non-local/local being.
Try it ... it's a good practice for creatiivity & a type of meditation. Prepare for something, covering very aspect you possibly can, even write down your initial "paper," then leave it over night, or in meditation, or whist doing something else so that you no longer think about it. Empty the mind, go into the Silence, giving it space for the intuition, inspiration or revelation to arrive. And when the light goes on, the "eureka" moment arrives, use all your hard work of preparation to interpret what is revealed. Only be aware of the "ego" which can take you away from the purity of the potential revealed, & like when trying to remember a dream, don't lose the higher vibration to early, it is a delicate game. These are the dimensions of String Theory, & the mechanics of the Quantum mind. Many great scientific minds, like Newton & da Vinci, used methods like this, both having mystical/esoteric practices, & this is what we can really learn from Quantum, String & Holographic Theories.
With interest.
the mystical mc
x
Where does the field of mathematics stand if not outside of time & space in the wave world of potential? & how do we get to know that field, but through its collapse by individuals into classical & rational existence? We do this by separating a part of the whole into something more tangible, existence. This was shown by Sir William Hamilton "discovery" of Quaternion Mathematics, when thinking that all was lost & that he would never get the breakthrough he was searching for, & whilst talking a walk with his wife over a bridge in Dublin, it came to him in a flash of inspiration (the quantum non-local realm of pure potential in mathematics), which he then he could rationalize due to his hard preparation & work.
This is how the quantum/classical mind works, you have to prepare the ground with thorough investigation, then let go of thought, to give space for creativity to enter, then take the creativity revealed & manifest with it. This is the wonder of the quantum/classical mind, & a part of our non-local/local being.
Try it ... it's a good practice for creatiivity & a type of meditation. Prepare for something, covering very aspect you possibly can, even write down your initial "paper," then leave it over night, or in meditation, or whist doing something else so that you no longer think about it. Empty the mind, go into the Silence, giving it space for the intuition, inspiration or revelation to arrive. And when the light goes on, the "eureka" moment arrives, use all your hard work of preparation to interpret what is revealed. Only be aware of the "ego" which can take you away from the purity of the potential revealed, & like when trying to remember a dream, don't lose the higher vibration to early, it is a delicate game. These are the dimensions of String Theory, & the mechanics of the Quantum mind. Many great scientific minds, like Newton & da Vinci, used methods like this, both having mystical/esoteric practices, & this is what we can really learn from Quantum, String & Holographic Theories.
With interest.
the mystical mc
x
Mensaje 4
As I said, "until this fact is appreciated..."
One can't "step out of" something one was never in.
Can a universe exist which contains no consciousness? Sure, in a limited space/time sense. Would it have math? That goes back to my original question, and my original post.
Can consciousness exist without a space/time universe in which to exist? Sure, unless one thinks that when this space/time universe winds down, or at least our sun explodes, all consciousness including yours will cease. This would suggest that consciousness is a finite quantity, malleable, with a beginning and an end. Sorry, but that is just too mechanical a view to entertain. Such a view would imply people are machines, and religion meaningless. Whatever else it is, consciousness is not a mechanical function.
Any whole view of "universe" must take into account consciousness, however, since consciousness exists, and any whole view of "universe" by definition includes everything that exists.
One can't "step out of" something one was never in.
Can a universe exist which contains no consciousness? Sure, in a limited space/time sense. Would it have math? That goes back to my original question, and my original post.
Can consciousness exist without a space/time universe in which to exist? Sure, unless one thinks that when this space/time universe winds down, or at least our sun explodes, all consciousness including yours will cease. This would suggest that consciousness is a finite quantity, malleable, with a beginning and an end. Sorry, but that is just too mechanical a view to entertain. Such a view would imply people are machines, and religion meaningless. Whatever else it is, consciousness is not a mechanical function.
Any whole view of "universe" must take into account consciousness, however, since consciousness exists, and any whole view of "universe" by definition includes everything that exists.
Mensaje 5
1 respuesta
SPACE AND TIME CREATS OUR CONSCIOUSNESS, MATH OF COURSE EXISTS WITH OR WITH OUT OUR CONSIOUNSNESS,OUR PROBLEM IS BECAUSE WE DO NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS TO SAY THE RIGHT N WRONGS OF QUATUM PHYSICS WE ARE UNABLE TO FATHEM THE CORRECT CODES OF UNIVERSAL MATHS, SO I SAY OUR MATHS IS NOT CORRECT IN OUR MORTAL STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS
Mensaje 6
yes, only I would say that, math doesn't exist as such, not until we separate it from the holy wholeness of it's pure potential in the wave field. Existence comes from the latin "to be set apart from." It is through us that math exists, through us that medicine exists & through us that God exist. Before us they are living in the Oneness of their individual fields, fields within fields, only being potential, standing outside of time & space & thus not really existing.
But I am playing with semantics to get a Quantum Reality across. Consciousness exists in locality through our brain/mind for instance, but it also doesn't exist as such, in its non-local potential wave form. These are the explicit & implicit orders of Dave Bohm.
The answer are there, in potential, but needs to be collapsed by us to be manifested into existence.
mc
x
But I am playing with semantics to get a Quantum Reality across. Consciousness exists in locality through our brain/mind for instance, but it also doesn't exist as such, in its non-local potential wave form. These are the explicit & implicit orders of Dave Bohm.
The answer are there, in potential, but needs to be collapsed by us to be manifested into existence.
mc
x
Mensaje 8
Quantum Theory is a theory of Consciousness & we have always had the possibility of quantum awareness, just like there has always been gravity, even before Newton.
Jesus was well aware of it, as you can see from parts of the Gospel of John & the gospel of Thomas. When Jesus was telling us that he was the way, he didn't mean christianity, he meant that if we follow his example, & use the field Christ Consciousness or Holy Spirit, then we too can do as he did, & experience our godliness.
I have been looking into field dynamics recently, which goes very well with the Quantum Theory & also String Theory & Holographic Theory. We have fields of potential & we have neural fields, which enable us to interpret & manifest those fields of potential, each one worthless without the other, they give rise to each other. Quantum physics tells us of a potential brought into actuality by observation. The field of potential exists only when parts of itself are set apart from itself & no amount of use or setting apart ever diminishes a field, for it does not exist as an entity but only as a function. These fields seem to grow in strength through the dynamic involved, as in our personal memory field, any expression of a field effect enhances & enlarges that field – the more use & feedback a memory receives, the more feedback it generates & the more easily it is accessed. “For him who has, more will be given” & while the nature of that “more” is incidental its function is vital. Jesus fully expected to set up a field effect that any follower of his way both would be strengthened & would strengthen that field.
Jesus simply said that he was the way … he wasn’t talking about It, because it can’t be explained – he was It, or rather It was him, & those around him could either see that or not. A field flowed through him & moved him, but he was not the field. In seeing him people saw the field in the only way it can be seen. He said “No man sees the father” but then “he who sees me sees the father”. In this way we start an open-ended dialogue between the creator & the created.
The Gospel of St John (14 1:14) explains this beautifully: "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my fathers house there are many rooms; if it were not so, I would not have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go & prepare a place for you, I will come back & take you to be with me that you may also be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
Jesus answered, "I am the way & the truth & the life. No-one comes to the father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my father as well. From now on, you do know him & you have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father & that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father: How can you say 'show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, & the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father living in me, who is doing his work.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father & the Father is in me; or at believe in the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you shall ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, & I will do it."
This is pure Quantum Physics & field dynamics. We can learn to resonate with & express various fields, be they fields of medicine, mathematics, morals or memory, or even the field of the Holy Spirit (or Vishnu), we can learn that we have the potential of Life at our finger tips, or in our neural pathways.
Quantum Theory is a mystical theory of consciousness & how it creates matter.
with love & inspiration
the mystical mc
x
Jesus was well aware of it, as you can see from parts of the Gospel of John & the gospel of Thomas. When Jesus was telling us that he was the way, he didn't mean christianity, he meant that if we follow his example, & use the field Christ Consciousness or Holy Spirit, then we too can do as he did, & experience our godliness.
I have been looking into field dynamics recently, which goes very well with the Quantum Theory & also String Theory & Holographic Theory. We have fields of potential & we have neural fields, which enable us to interpret & manifest those fields of potential, each one worthless without the other, they give rise to each other. Quantum physics tells us of a potential brought into actuality by observation. The field of potential exists only when parts of itself are set apart from itself & no amount of use or setting apart ever diminishes a field, for it does not exist as an entity but only as a function. These fields seem to grow in strength through the dynamic involved, as in our personal memory field, any expression of a field effect enhances & enlarges that field – the more use & feedback a memory receives, the more feedback it generates & the more easily it is accessed. “For him who has, more will be given” & while the nature of that “more” is incidental its function is vital. Jesus fully expected to set up a field effect that any follower of his way both would be strengthened & would strengthen that field.
Jesus simply said that he was the way … he wasn’t talking about It, because it can’t be explained – he was It, or rather It was him, & those around him could either see that or not. A field flowed through him & moved him, but he was not the field. In seeing him people saw the field in the only way it can be seen. He said “No man sees the father” but then “he who sees me sees the father”. In this way we start an open-ended dialogue between the creator & the created.
The Gospel of St John (14 1:14) explains this beautifully: "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my fathers house there are many rooms; if it were not so, I would not have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go & prepare a place for you, I will come back & take you to be with me that you may also be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
Jesus answered, "I am the way & the truth & the life. No-one comes to the father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my father as well. From now on, you do know him & you have seen him."
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father & that will be enough for us."
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father: How can you say 'show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, & the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father living in me, who is doing his work.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father & the Father is in me; or at believe in the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And whatever you shall ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, & I will do it."
This is pure Quantum Physics & field dynamics. We can learn to resonate with & express various fields, be they fields of medicine, mathematics, morals or memory, or even the field of the Holy Spirit (or Vishnu), we can learn that we have the potential of Life at our finger tips, or in our neural pathways.
Quantum Theory is a mystical theory of consciousness & how it creates matter.
with love & inspiration
the mystical mc
x
Mensaje 9
1 respuesta
SURELY MATTER EXISTS TO SUPPORT THE BIRTH OF CONSCIOUSNESS?
Mensaje 10
Yes, consciousness, like life (is Life), is a field dynamic, creator & created working together, the wave field of pure potential useless without the neural (particle) fields within the brain to bring them into existence.
Although matter is really just another form of consciousness & not really matter at all, only created so that the game of life could exist & Consciousness could get to know itself.
Although matter is really just another form of consciousness & not really matter at all, only created so that the game of life could exist & Consciousness could get to know itself.
Mensaje 11
1 respuesta
Interesting, but if neural networks (made of matter in space) are necessary to bring consciousness into existence, then consciousness is dependent upon the physical universe, which violates the argument in Post #1 above, and per Post #4, makes religion (including God) meaningless.
Even on a metaphysical level, there are enough verified instances of out-of-body perception, precognition, and similar experiences to demonstrate that consciousness is independent of space and time, not a "collapsed locality."
Even on a metaphysical level, there are enough verified instances of out-of-body perception, precognition, and similar experiences to demonstrate that consciousness is independent of space and time, not a "collapsed locality."
Mensaje 12
1 respuesta
religion and god are words we use to explain things we dont understand is not to say they dont exist, i actually said matter exists to support the birth of consciousness, not matter is necessary to bring consciousness in to existence.a bit like a test tube baby needs a tube,a vessel.
if matter wasnt needed to support the birth consciousness there would be no need for matter at all, a bit like a caterpiller is needed to create a butterfly,why not miss out the caterpiller?
if matter wasnt needed to support the birth consciousness there would be no need for matter at all, a bit like a caterpiller is needed to create a butterfly,why not miss out the caterpiller?
Mensaje 13
Ah, but then you are thinking of Consciousness as being only existing. Consciousness exists, is made manifest, through the dynamic between wave & particle, & yes here it needs a neural field, as in the human brain, to do so. But it also 'is' outside of time & space, were it is One, not separate, & therefore non-existent, non tangible, non local.
As Jesus said: “If the body came into being because of consciousness that is a wonder, but if consciousness came into being because of the body this a wonder of wonders”.
or Mohammed “I am a hidden (non existent) treasure; I wanted to be known. I created the cosmos so that I might be known.”
As Jesus said: “If the body came into being because of consciousness that is a wonder, but if consciousness came into being because of the body this a wonder of wonders”.
or Mohammed “I am a hidden (non existent) treasure; I wanted to be known. I created the cosmos so that I might be known.”
Mensaje 14
1 respuesta
yes, I am talking 'exist' to mean here, from the Latin, 'to be set apart from,' but I suppose we also talk of un-manifest existence.
I was using it in a quantum theoretical way, to show how the field dynamics of a mathematics works, with regards to the potential of the non-local whole field of mathematics which any one can collapse into existence, whether balancing their bills or working on String Theory. The field as such, does exist but is brought into existence through the neural field of the mathematician. Before humans evolved, & there were no thought fields, they potential was not tangible.
mmm ... down the rabbit hole, as they say.
I was using it in a quantum theoretical way, to show how the field dynamics of a mathematics works, with regards to the potential of the non-local whole field of mathematics which any one can collapse into existence, whether balancing their bills or working on String Theory. The field as such, does exist but is brought into existence through the neural field of the mathematician. Before humans evolved, & there were no thought fields, they potential was not tangible.
mmm ... down the rabbit hole, as they say.
Mensaje 16
1 respuesta
I like that. So mathematics does exist without consciousness. My question is answered.
Mensaje 17
no consciousness exists without the need of mathmatics, your consciousness just creates mathmatics ,my question doesnt need answering as i already know .
Mensaje 18
mmm ... I am not sure I said that, did I? Since I would describe Consciousness as Everything & Nothing, as Spirit, then no ... but if you mean human consciousness, then it gets more complicated, as we get into these fields of existence & non-existence. But I suppose what science has been searching for, & apparently found in the "Unified Field" or "String Theory", is one mathematical equation or which work for & describes everything. Now this Unified Field Theory shows one mathematical equation which holds true for everything!
What science has shown us at it delves deeper & deeper into the fabric of matter is, firstly: that as you go deeper the laws combine, joining electricity with magnetism, then as you go deeper still electro-magnetism with the nuclear forces (Grand Unified Theory) & then finally joining those forces with Gravity giving us The Unified Field, of what is seen as pure vibration. Then, secondly, what science shows us, is that as you go deeper into matter, from molecular, to atomic, to nuclear to sub-nuclear levels of matter, so the force with matter gets more powerful, atomic power being more powerful than chemical power, nuclear power being more forceful than atomic power & Zero Point Unified Field power being the most dynamic & full of force than all. Show us that as we go into matter it becomes more unified in its intelligence & more forceful in its nature. & then finally what science found as it delved deeper & deeper into matter, was that it disappeared, that it slipped through their fingers into nothingness, & was found to be more like 'thought' in its nature that matter, which didn't actually exist, & is only energy/force & information/intelligence.
But I would say that mathematics doesn't exist with out human consciousness or a thought field, which has enabled the dynamic between to emerge & evolve, only it is evolving "That" which is involved. Spirit or Consciousness involved & hid itself in what appeared to be matter, so that this creator-created experience could start. Thought-Fields were created within various animals as evolution developed, finally emerging in full mathematical expression in humans, & the field dynamic lets any human delve into that field, depending on what "homework" he does regarding his mathematics. Yet if after doing his homework whilst searching for an answer (or not), the human can let his unconscious process the information & spread the possibilities, as done by sleeping on it, or by doing something unrelated or nothing, & then with an open & empty mind (not easy for most) the non-existent field of wave potential might open to give an "Insight" or "Ah ha" moment & reveal something wholly & holy new & creative, which then the classical mind has to bring into form. Yet Consciousness is involved from the beginning, as it is "That" which is evolving.
My answer, if forced, would be that they arrive simultaneously from what was involved, Consciousness (Spirit), into consciousness (small "c," as in thought-field).
Now, did that make is more confusing?!? I enjoyed it, & will return to bed now & reread it when I wake. As Stuart say, the dynamic of ego (expression) & Spirit (being) give rise to becoming & evolution. Mathematics doesn't exist with Consciousness, as Consciousness is Essence, & is created together with consciousness as a dynamic ever feeding itself into a greater expression.
What science has shown us at it delves deeper & deeper into the fabric of matter is, firstly: that as you go deeper the laws combine, joining electricity with magnetism, then as you go deeper still electro-magnetism with the nuclear forces (Grand Unified Theory) & then finally joining those forces with Gravity giving us The Unified Field, of what is seen as pure vibration. Then, secondly, what science shows us, is that as you go deeper into matter, from molecular, to atomic, to nuclear to sub-nuclear levels of matter, so the force with matter gets more powerful, atomic power being more powerful than chemical power, nuclear power being more forceful than atomic power & Zero Point Unified Field power being the most dynamic & full of force than all. Show us that as we go into matter it becomes more unified in its intelligence & more forceful in its nature. & then finally what science found as it delved deeper & deeper into matter, was that it disappeared, that it slipped through their fingers into nothingness, & was found to be more like 'thought' in its nature that matter, which didn't actually exist, & is only energy/force & information/intelligence.
But I would say that mathematics doesn't exist with out human consciousness or a thought field, which has enabled the dynamic between to emerge & evolve, only it is evolving "That" which is involved. Spirit or Consciousness involved & hid itself in what appeared to be matter, so that this creator-created experience could start. Thought-Fields were created within various animals as evolution developed, finally emerging in full mathematical expression in humans, & the field dynamic lets any human delve into that field, depending on what "homework" he does regarding his mathematics. Yet if after doing his homework whilst searching for an answer (or not), the human can let his unconscious process the information & spread the possibilities, as done by sleeping on it, or by doing something unrelated or nothing, & then with an open & empty mind (not easy for most) the non-existent field of wave potential might open to give an "Insight" or "Ah ha" moment & reveal something wholly & holy new & creative, which then the classical mind has to bring into form. Yet Consciousness is involved from the beginning, as it is "That" which is evolving.
My answer, if forced, would be that they arrive simultaneously from what was involved, Consciousness (Spirit), into consciousness (small "c," as in thought-field).
Now, did that make is more confusing?!? I enjoyed it, & will return to bed now & reread it when I wake. As Stuart say, the dynamic of ego (expression) & Spirit (being) give rise to becoming & evolution. Mathematics doesn't exist with Consciousness, as Consciousness is Essence, & is created together with consciousness as a dynamic ever feeding itself into a greater expression.
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